Interview with Clifford Toler, Part One

Charlotte Whitford (CW), Diccie Ipock (DI), Marilyn Jones and Victor T. Jones Jr. (VJ) visited with Clifford Toler (CT) one Saturday afternoon in September or October (the week before Homecoming at New Haven Church) in the early to mid-1980s. Based on internal evidence, the interview occurred between 1979 and 1988, and probably before 1985, as I believe I was in High School at the time. The interview below is transcribed from a cassette tape in my possession (Victor T. Jones, Jr). The batteries in the cassette recorder were dying, and the resulting audio plays back faster than normal. Charlotte Whitford may have another cassette of the interview from her recorder. That copy may include information missing from my copy.

Between the two sides of the cassette, much conversation had taken place, as I didn't hear the recorder stop in time to flip the cassette. Side one ends mid thought on the Norman family, and side two begins mid sentence on a land transaction. Presented below is the transcript of side one of the cassette, side two will be presented at a later date. 

Sometimes several conversations were going on at the same time. The transcription below follows the main conversation with Mr. Clifford, and at times is edited for clarity. For example, not every "um" and "er" is recorded, nor is every repetition of some of the facts. False starts when answering or asking questions, such as when the speaker is trying to gather his or her thoughts, are omitted many times. In some places, the audio is very faint, especially when Diccie Ipock is speaking, and such places are indicated by [inaudible].

Some facts are correct, others are not, so the information is presented with that caveat. For example, research indicates James Toler (Sr.) is the father of James, Charles, Amariah, Stephen and William, not Daniel, as indicated by Mr. Clifford.

Mr. Clifford Toler was born in 1903 and died in 1991. He lived in the Willis Neck area of Craven County, North Carolina, at the sharp curve on Willis Neck Road. During the interview, his wife (Nona Lee Toler) and son (Clifford Toler Jr.—CTJr) made an appearance.

[Begin Side One]

CW: Alright, we want to...you just start telling us just like we did the other afternoon.

CT: Well, James Toler, James the First. He arrived in America in what is known as the Plymouth Colony up around the north of Virginia just this side, some where about 1740. Now that's just an estimation.

DI: Arrived in America when?

CT: About 18—,  1740.

CW: 1740. In Plymouth Colony, Virginia.

CT: James the First. But, I'm not going to mention his brothers. There was three of them, he had two brothers. One went north into Maryland, and one stayed in Virginia. Now we'll leave off them, I don't even know their names. We'll leave them off and come to James the Second. He was son of James the First. James the Second had three sons, that I know that I've been told by my Granddaddy and Daddy and also Uncle Louis. One was named Daniel, one Mathias...

DI: Mathias? How do you spell that?

CT: M-A-T-H-I-A-S, Isn't that how you spell that.

CT: Well then, and the other one was named Thomas. Well now I'll tell you what became of them. Mathias settled in Pamlico County and moved into Pamlico County sometime after James the First come to Craven County.

CW: That was Mathias went to Pamlico County?

CT: Yeah, Mathias settled in Pamlico County. And Thomas, there's little that I know about him. He must have went back in Virginia, because since then, you need to write that down, because this is something that we all used to guess about. After a long time after New Bern was settled and my daddy got to be a young man they come a man from Virginia, a Toler called Tom, Tom Toler. And he moved to New Bern and settled down and raised a family in New Bern and I have seen his offspring, and talked with them personally. And he had two boys that I've met personally and so Tom probably died in New Bern or went back to Virginia one. He just faded out of everybody's recollection.

DI: Did you know any of his boys?

CT: Yes, his oldest boy was named...Gracious Sake. He used to work a long time ago when I was a young boy down there a grown man at that time, down there at a filling station at the corner of Broad and East Front Street. Now what was his name. I tell you that I've forgot that one, I'll just name the other one that I know, his name was Paxton. P-A-X-T-O-N. Paxton. Well that's the end of that.

            Now, James the Second's three sons was Daniel, Mathias, and Thomas. You've got that down. Alright, now we're going to start where our families come into that family. Daniel had five sons, I don't know anything about Mathias' sons or Thomas' sons, but Ulysses, my brother, you know him, you knew him. He went into Pamlico County one time and was hewing around Pamlico County and run into some of Mathias' offspring, and his name was Bill. Well later on, there was another William Toler and he is some of your offspring, you are of his offspring, William. But we don't get to that right now. Let's get back to Daniel. James the Second had a son named Daniel, Mathias, and Tom. Alright, now let's get back to Daniel's sons. Daniel's sons was James, my great-granddaddy. The next one was Amariah, but I don't know how to spell Amariah.

CW: I can spell that.

CT: You can? Alright call it out. Amariah, Charles, Stephen, and William. I just called his name a while ago. William.

CW: Now James was your...

CT: Great-Granddaddy. Now let's start with James since he was the oldest one, and I'll tell you his sons. James had three sons: Isaiah, Amariah, and Louis. That was Tom and Kelly...Diccie...you remember Uncle Louis don't you?

DI: Yes.

CW: How do you spell his name? L-O-U-I-S or L-E?

CT:  Yes, yes, because I'll tell you how, why that is. We don't spell it L-E-W-I-S because that is Anglo-Saxon and the Tolers were a Germanic Tribe called the Celts. You've heard of all that haven't you. You people have been to school, you've know all about that. Well they had a different language than Anglo Saxon. Anglo-Saxon spoke a little German, but the Celtic tongue was a little bit different. And in Anglo-Saxon Louis is spelled LOUIS and LEWIS but for some reason or another France was settled by the Celts and still are Celts in France in the state of Brittany—you know that little corner of France down in there they call Brittany? Well, its Celtic people there and they are some of the people that my family, they are Germanic people, that my family originate from. So we'll say LOUIS.

And, ah,

DI: Didn't they have some sisters? Amariah, Isaiah, and Uncle Louis didn't they have some sisters?

CT: That was a second marriage.

DI: No, one married Henry Wetherington.

CT: No, that was William Toler.

CW: That's what I've got. William Toler, too. We may not be far enough back.

CT: That was Daniel's sons. Daniel's sons was James, Amariah, Charles, Stephen and William. William was the youngest of that family. Well Isaiah.

CW: We've got James' sons: Isaiah, Amariah and Louis, we've got those.

CT: That's right. We've got to go a little further but I ain't going to tell you my family, because Isaiah didn't have but one boy and that was my daddy, George.

DI: [something inaudible]

CT: That was him.

CW: Had one son...

CT: Isaiah, one son, George. I descended from him.

CW: That was your daddy.

CT: Um-hum. And Uncle Louis, if you want all of them. Do you want all of their names?

CW: Yes, we want all we can get.

CT: Uncle Amariah and I can't remember all of his boys to save my soul. I tried the other night to remember all of Uncle Amariah's boys—he was the next to Granddaddy—Uncle Louis was the baby boy.

DI: Uncle Amariah married someone

CT: Parthene Jones

DI: He married someone before he married Parthene. He married Victoria...[inaudible]

CT: Did he?

DI: ...two children from Mrs. Mary Wetherington, one named John

CT: She was a Wiley

DI: No, [inaudible] ...married John Henry Norman and the other was a boy named John and lived over in Bridgeton and he married ... [inaudible]

CT: You've told me something I never knew that Uncle Amariah was married twice.

DI: I didn't either until right here lately. Mrs. Mary Wetherington...[inaudible]

CT: Well I'm glad you knew that Diccie.

DI: I can find out for certain from Mrs. Mary.

CT:  Alright. Well anyway, the last woman he married was a Jones. What was her first name?

DI: Parthene.

CT: Parthene. Uncle Amariah married Parthene Jones. Well now do you know his sons?

DI: Josh, Duff...

CT: I know there are five or six of them.

CW: Is he the one that had Duff Toler? Was he a preacher?

CT: That was it. Well I declare we'll have to leave off some of them unless you want to put down what me and her can recollect?

CW: Well we do.

DI: I've got all them, or a lot of them anyway.

CT: You have? Some? Well now Uncle Louis' sons were Kelly, Thomas, Seth, Harvey and Jimmy.

DI: And a girl Lizzie.

CT: Lizzie, that was his daughter.

CW: Was she Elizabeth or Lizzie?

DI: They called her Lizzie, but I don't know.

CT:  Well we've got so many to name we'll have to get on with it now. Amariah, his sons, I never knew but one. Did you?

DI: Duff.

CT: Who? Uncle Amariah, my ...we were then on my line. Now we've got to start with Granddaddy Jimmy's brother Amariah. Ain't we? Amariah never had but let's see now...he had one son...two sons: Emmett and Daniel.

DI: Daniel, was he the one who married Aunt Mary Liz?

CT: No, he married Sina. He married Aunt Sina.

CW: Now wait a minute, I'm lost. Are we on James' sons?

DI: Amariah's sons.

CW: Amariah's sons?

CT: Amariah, son of Daniel. Put that down and then you can keep it more straight. Amariah, son of Daniel.

CW: Oh, I've got you.  Now I've got you.

CT: Well he had two sons that I know about. That was Emmett and Daniel. Now we'll go to Charles, son of Daniel. Charles ...have you ever heard of him?

DI:  Yeah.

CT: He lives...That was his old home, the Caton place up there. The Louis Caton place. That was his old home. That was where he settled.

CW: This is the Charles Toler that was on that piece of paper that I gave you all and Diccie's got a copy of it. An old woman from Blount's Creek gave it...

DI: Her name is Anna Rowe.

CW: That Charles Toler was mentioned on that paper. [some inaudible conversation] We've got Charles' because we've got it on that paper.

CT: Well put it right down there and if you want to recopy it you can do it. Charles, son of Daniel ...I can't remember to save my life but one son. He had three or four daughters. One married, you've heard of him, right there where you stay...

CW: Silas

CT: Silas Fulcher. Her name...what is Beanie Cayton's name? I called her Beanie.

DI: Who?

CT: Ervin Cayton's

DI: Verrena...

CT: Beanie

DI: Verrena Carolina, I believe. Verrena anyway.

CT: Well I used called her Beanie.

CW: We still do.

CT: Alright, well Silas Fulcher married Uncle Charles' daughter Beanie. I called her. Old man Alpha used to live down here in the Forest.

CW: Alpha Fulcher.

CT: Alpha Fulcher. And another brother of his lived in Norfolk. His name was Rudolph.

CW: Now that's getting in my family.

CT: It is? Well alright. That was Uncle Charles Toler's daughter Beanie. And he had one son. Well he had another daughter named Melissa. Melissa Caton. She married Louis Caton and that's how come the Caton's there. Melissa Caton was one of Uncle Charles' daughters. And another one was old man Ad Whitford's daughter. They called her Amelia. Old man Ad Whitford. You knew him, too, didn't you? And his other daughter was... her name was Barbara, and she married John Powers. Barbara had a brother named Daniel, and that's the only boy that I can remember Uncle Charles Toler had. Now I might get to thinking seriously and think of another one but I can't...anyway John Powers and Barbara immigrated to Texas way back yonder...you've heard of that hadn't you.

CW: That's on that piece of paper.

DI: I know they've got some...

CT: They immigrated to Texas and Daniel went with them, and there is another family of Tolers in Texas.

CW: Isn't this interesting how all this ties with some of the things we've gotten. And I've...I wish I had thought. We should have brought him a copy of that. I'm going to make...I bet I've got another copy of that at the house. But I want to give you a copy of that. So sometime when I come into the post office I'm going to bring one.

DI: Charles' children?

CT: Yeah...Look Diccie, Cousin Dave had a boy, I think he had three sons, I think, but I don't know his last son because he moved away from down yonder to White Oak River. Well he had a boy named Holloman and while Holloman was on his journey as a young fellow he got into the Navy or Merchant Marines or something or other and anyway he landed down there in Texas. And he already knew about his grandmother's sister being in Texas so he decided to look them up and he did. And after he got out of the Navy if that's what he was in, something like that, he went and stayed with them for years and years and years. Cousin Dave's son, Holloman.

DI: Holloman?

CT: Um-hmm. Alright then that's the end of that family. Now...let's see, we've had James, Amariah and Charles, ain't we?

DI: Now it's Stephen.

CT: Now we go to Stephen, son of Daniel.

DI: Uncle Jim, Uncle Abe, and them.

CT: Right, you know everyone of them? Well the first one's name was Dennis, Dennis, Abe, Abraham, well he was the very last one. Then comes Zach, Redding, and Jim. He had five or six boys.

DI: And two or three girls...

CT: Well I don't remember.

DI: Gus and Ellen.

CW: That was the girls' names?

DI: {inaudible}

CT: There was one that went married a Lewis and lived way down yonder South River way, Adams Creek. What was her name? Well one of them, didn't one of them marry John Purifoy?

CW: What?! That's mine!

CT: John Purifoy. Did you know old man John Purifoy?

CW: Not yet, I don't.

CT: Well he's dead. Long ago, long ago.

CW: Now who was it married John Purifoy?

CT: Well now what was her name?

VJ: Jane.

CW: Jane.

CT: Jane! That's right. That boy's got it. Right there. Jane was her name. I've got to where now I can't remember things as good as I used too, but that was her name.

CW: I tell you one thing. My memory is not like yours at my age right now.

DI: Was there one named Betty?

CT: Betty? That's the one that married Lewis and moved to Adams Creek...South River way down there.

DI: Then there's Emmeline? She's the one married John Walker. Which one married John Purifoy?

VJ: Jane.

CT: And there was one that was never married. Her name was Augusta.

CW: She didn't get married. You know what somebody told me? They said if you look far enough back you'll find you've got Toler blood in you. And I do, I'm finding out that I do. I've got Toler blood.

DI: And Ellen didn't get married either.

CT: That's right, Gus and Ellen.

DI: [Inaudible]

CT: No, no. That was an adopted. Her name was Minnie. We'll she was an adopted child.

DI: She was?

CT: Yes. Well, old Uncle Stephen, I call all of them uncle. Old Uncle Stephen's...what was his wife's name?

VJ & DI: Susan.

CT: Susan. Well she was John Purifoy's sister? Wasn't she? Look it up son and see.

DI: I don't know?

CW: He hadn't got the Purifoys. I hadn't got that far back either. I'm a Purifoy. I'm going to get it all while I'm right here.

CT: Well won't she a Purifoy, Diccie?

DI: I don't know.

CW: Let's see. Who's wife did you think was a Purifoy?

CT: Old man Stephen, son of Daniel. I believe she was John Purifoy's , Old Man John Purifoy's sister...old man Arrington's son. There were several of them Purifoys and old man Arrington was the only one I ever heard of anywhere down there. And I know exactly where he lived, but...Do you know anything about where Willie Purifoy used to live?

CW:  Yes. Now that's me section of the woods.

CT: It is? Willie?

CW: I lived further on down the road.

CT: Well Willie's daddy was named...everybody called him Rad. Everybody called Willie's daddy Rad. He was old man Arrington's son. Well old man Arrington had Rad, John, Steve...Steve, and one called Ap. That was old man Arrington's family. Well now we've got Stephen, now. Now we come to William, the youngest one. Did you descend from William, too? O.K.  Now William...now I'll have to think a long time because I think that William married a descendant of the settlers in New Bern.

DI: Barrington...Penny Barrington.

CT: No, she won't a Barrington, was she? Was she a Barrington?

DI: I thought it was Penny Barrington.

CT: Well I've been told that he married an Ebeck, an Ipock they call them now. Penny. Her name was Penny, I know. Well I've been told that she was an Ebeck. Of course you know the German, Swiss and Palatines that settled New Bern they were called, that particular family, in the Swiss language, were called Ebeck. Have you ever heard of that?  Now when the English got through with it, Anglo-Saxon got through with it, they called it Ipock. And I've been told that old Aunt Susan was an Ipock. Are you sure? Am I wrong?

DI: That would be Pa's daddy, wouldn't it? My granddaddy's daddy? William Pitt Toler's daddy?

CT: William Pitt...Yeah.

DI: Well it was Penny Barrington, because it's on the tombstone out there at High Bridge.

CT: Penny Barrington. Alright let's forget about them.

DI: Do you know any Barringtons?

CT: Oh yes, I know some Barringtons used to live right across the highway over there on the old brick road. Old man Jesse Barrington.

CW: I want to get that written down, too. I've got some Barringtons in my family history.

CT: You have? Well, old man Jesse Barrington...I don't know much about him than he used to live across the highway...old brick road over yonder. Do you know where Randolph Cook used to live? Well that was the Barrington place.

DI: You don't know where she come from or nothing?

CT: No I don't. I don't even know his wife or anything? I just know old man Jesse Barrington. Nona Lee remembers him.

CW: Do you remember the Kinsaul place? Now my Grandmother was a Barrington. She was a Mary Barrington and she married a Jones. But her folks came from the Kinsaul place over here. And they were Kinsauls and they came from Pamlico County. Somehow one of those Kinsauls married a Barrington. And I bet that Barrington was from right up there right where those people you were talking about, Jesse Barrington.

CT: I just don't know. They could have been kin, I just don't know.

CW: I bet you one of those Kinsaul girls married. When they came over here.

CT: There's some of those Kinsaul girls alright because one of the married a Fulcher out here called Bryan Fulcher.

CW: That's the ones. We're kin to the Fulchers. You know that Fulcher that was a Holiness Preacher up there in Vanceboro.

CT: Dave?

CW: Well he was kin to my mother.

CT: Well Dave is old man Bryan's son. He had four or five sons. I know every one of them. I can remember them. I used to pal around with some of them.

CW: Did Mr. Bryan Fulcher marry a Barrington?

CT: No he married a Kinsaul.

CW: A Kinsaul. That's right a Kinsaul. I've got that, that's what I needed to know. Now we'll get back to the Tolers. William Toler.

CT: William Toler. Now let's see. William Toler...his sons were Lawrence, Caravasso, Pitt, and Willis. That's all of them, isn't it? [some conversation] Diccie, is that all of William's family?

DI: That's all the boys.

CT: Well I don't know the girls.

DI: There's one girl named Frances Ann, and she married Dave R Dunn. And Aunt Laura...

CT: Laura Wetherington, old man Henry. I know her.

DI: And Mary, she didn't ever get married.

CT: Yes, she did. Mary married a man from Connecticut. No, not Connecticut, a New England state. What was his name?

DI: I don't know, I didn't know that.

CT: Mary Jane? Mary Jane? Who was Mary Jane?

DI: You're talking about Uncle Lawrence's girl.

CT: Yes, I am. Yes, I am. Beg your pardon, Diccie.

DI: Mary, Pa's sister was the first one buried out here at High Bridge.

CT: I am getting off the track fast, that was Uncle Lawrence's daughter.

DI: Yes.

CT: That's right.

DI: This Mary was the first one buried out here at High Bridge.

CW: And she didn't get married?

DI: No, she didn't.

CT: Well now you help them with that for I don't know.

DI:  And then Elizabeth, which is Beanie's mama.

CT: John Gaskins. John Gaskins was raised right across this branch, right over yonder on that hill across this branch. He moved in there not but just a little ways from Uncle Charles Toler. They were the only two families in there at that time...except...

DI: And somebody else...

CT: Huh?

DI:  Didn't somebody raise him?

CT: I don't know. I don't...to tell you the truth I don't even know, because this whole neighborhood is full of Gaskinses but really the Gaskins family is something I don't know too much about. Now. I know from Nona Lee, she, her family, her granddaddy married at first a Gaskins. I think that his name was Adam Gaskins, and I think he fathered the whole Gaskins family that's all around this whole place. They were just everywhere. In fact they owned most all of this land, but that's been a terrible long many years ago now. And there's no Gaskinses live right in here now, but there's plenty of them on the road...[inaudible]...but I don't know much about the Gaskins family. I know some of them, I've seen some of the old ones, but I don't know them. I think they were Adam Gaskins' offspring, Diccie, is what I think. Now, we've got Bill, William, and his sons,

CTJr: There's a William Toler lives in down by Bayboro.

CT: Well, he's some of Mathias' family.

CW: That's what I was thinking. There's a Toler, what's his name? He's in Tideland Electric.

DI: Lee?

CW: Lee Toler, and I bet, he's a, he's a holiness minister down in Alliance, and lives in Alliance.

CT: I know him.

CW: I bet you all those Tolers came from Mathias.

CT: I know him. I know Lee. [inaudible conversation] Yes, they were some of Mathias' family. Mathias, brother to Daniel. Well, let's see...

CW: We're going back to William's children.

CT:  Well Diccie can tell you more about William because she came from that generation...I mean she's kin to them.

CW: Can we go back and see if we can get all their children. Like Lawrence's children and who they are married to and their children.

CT: Well Lawrence, his oldest son was Allen, his grand-great...he descended from Allen. Lawrence was Allen's daddy.

CW: Who was your mother?

CT: My mother? She was Laura Bell Norman.

CW: Was she kin to Mr. Gilbert Norman and all them?

CT: Yes 

[Tape ends. End side one.]