Charlotte Whitford (CW), Diccie Ipock (DI), Marilyn Jones
and Victor T. Jones Jr. (VJ) visited with Clifford Toler (CT) one Saturday
afternoon in September or October (the week before Homecoming at New Haven Church) in the early to mid-1980s. Based
on internal evidence, the interview occurred between 1979 and 1988, and
probably before 1985, as I believe I was in High School at the time. The
interview below is transcribed from a cassette tape in my possession (Victor T.
Jones, Jr). The batteries in the cassette recorder were dying, and the
resulting audio plays back faster than normal. Charlotte Whitford may have
another cassette of the interview from her recorder. That copy may include
information missing from my copy.
Between the two sides of the cassette, much conversation
had taken place, as I didn't hear the recorder stop in time to flip the
cassette. Side one ends mid thought on the Norman
family, and side two begins mid sentence on a land transaction. Presented below
is the transcript of side one of the cassette, side two will be presented at a later date.
Sometimes several conversations were going
on at the same time. The transcription below follows the main conversation with
Mr. Clifford, and at times is edited for clarity. For example, not every "um" and "er" is
recorded, nor is every repetition of some of the facts. False starts when
answering or asking questions, such as when the speaker is trying to gather his or her
thoughts, are omitted many times. In some places, the audio is very faint,
especially when Diccie Ipock is speaking, and such places are indicated by
[inaudible].
Some facts are correct, others are not, so the
information is presented with that caveat. For example, research indicates
James Toler (Sr.) is the father of James, Charles, Amariah, Stephen and
William, not Daniel, as indicated by Mr. Clifford.
Mr. Clifford Toler was born in 1903 and died in 1991. He
lived in the Willis Neck area of Craven County, North Carolina, at the sharp curve on Willis Neck Road. During the interview,
his wife (Nona Lee Toler) and son (Clifford Toler Jr.—CTJr) made an appearance.
[Begin Side One]
CW: Alright, we want to...you just start telling us just
like we did the other afternoon.
CT: Well, James Toler, James the First. He arrived in America in what is known as the Plymouth Colony
up around the north of Virginia just this side, some where about 1740. Now that's just an estimation.
DI: Arrived in America when?
CT: About 18—, 1740.
CW: 1740. In Plymouth Colony,
Virginia.
CT: James the First. But, I'm not going to mention his
brothers. There was three of them, he had two brothers. One went north into Maryland, and one stayed in Virginia. Now we'll leave off them, I don't even know their names. We'll leave them off and come to James the Second. He was son of James the First. James the Second had three sons, that I know that I've been told by my Granddaddy and Daddy and also Uncle Louis. One was named Daniel, one Mathias...
DI: Mathias? How do you spell that?
CT: M-A-T-H-I-A-S, Isn't that how you spell that.
CT: Well then, and the other one was named Thomas. Well now
I'll tell you what became of them. Mathias settled in Pamlico
County and moved into Pamlico County
sometime after James the First come to Craven County.
CW: That was Mathias went to Pamlico County?
CT: Yeah, Mathias settled in Pamlico County.
And Thomas, there's little that I know about him. He must have went back in Virginia, because since
then, you need to write that down, because this is something that we all used
to guess about. After a long time after New
Bern was settled and my daddy got to be a young man
they come a man from Virginia, a Toler called Tom, Tom Toler. And he moved to New Bern and settled down and raised a family in New Bern and I have seen
his offspring, and talked with them personally. And he had two boys that I've
met personally and so Tom probably died in New Bern
or went back to Virginia
one. He just faded out of everybody's recollection.
DI: Did you know any of his boys?
CT: Yes, his oldest boy was named...Gracious Sake. He used
to work a long time ago when I was a young boy down there a grown man at that
time, down there at a filling station at the corner of Broad and East Front Street.
Now what was his name. I tell you that I've forgot that one, I'll just name the
other one that I know, his name was Paxton.
P-A-X-T-O-N. Paxton. Well that's the end of that.
Now, James the Second's three sons was Daniel, Mathias, and Thomas. You've got that down. Alright, now we're going to start where our families come into that family. Daniel had five sons, I don't know anything about Mathias' sons or Thomas' sons, but Ulysses, my brother, you know him, you knew him. He went into Pamlico County
one time and was hewing around Pamlico
County and run into some of Mathias' offspring, and his name was Bill. Well later on, there was another William Toler and he is some of your offspring, you are of his offspring, William. But we don't get to that right now. Let's get back to Daniel. James the Second had a son named Daniel, Mathias, and Tom. Alright, now let's get back to Daniel's sons. Daniel's sons was James, my great-granddaddy. The next one was Amariah, but I don't know how to spell Amariah.
CW: I can spell that.
CT: You can? Alright call it out. Amariah, Charles, Stephen,
and William. I just called his name a while ago. William.
CW: Now James was your...
CT: Great-Granddaddy. Now let's start with James since he
was the oldest one, and I'll tell you his sons. James had three sons: Isaiah,
Amariah, and Louis. That was Tom and Kelly...Diccie...you remember Uncle Louis
don't you?
DI: Yes.
CW: How do you spell his name? L-O-U-I-S or L-E?
CT: Yes, yes, because
I'll tell you how, why that is. We don't spell it L-E-W-I-S because that is
Anglo-Saxon and the Tolers were a Germanic Tribe called the Celts. You've heard
of all that haven't you. You people have been to school, you've know all about
that. Well they had a different language than Anglo Saxon. Anglo-Saxon spoke a
little German, but the Celtic tongue was a little bit different. And in
Anglo-Saxon Louis is spelled LOUIS and LEWIS but for some reason or another
France was settled by the Celts and still are Celts in France in the state of
Brittany—you know that little corner of France down in there they call
Brittany? Well, its Celtic people there and they are some of the people that my
family, they are Germanic people, that my family originate from. So we'll say
LOUIS.
And, ah,
DI: Didn't they have some sisters? Amariah, Isaiah, and
Uncle Louis didn't they have some sisters?
CT: That was a second marriage.
DI: No, one married Henry Wetherington.
CT: No, that was William Toler.
CW: That's what I've got. William Toler, too. We may not be
far enough back.
CT: That was Daniel's sons. Daniel's sons was James, Amariah, Charles, Stephen and William. William was the youngest of that family. Well Isaiah.
CW: We've got James' sons: Isaiah, Amariah and Louis, we've
got those.
CT: That's right. We've got to go a little further but I ain't going to tell you my family, because Isaiah didn't have but one boy and that was my daddy, George.
DI: [something inaudible]
CT: That was him.
CW: Had one son...
CT: Isaiah, one son, George. I descended from him.
CW: That was your daddy.
CT: Um-hum. And Uncle Louis, if you want all of them. Do you
want all of their names?
CW: Yes, we want all we can get.
CT: Uncle Amariah and I can't remember all of his boys to
save my soul. I tried the other night to remember all of Uncle Amariah's
boys—he was the next to Granddaddy—Uncle Louis was the baby boy.
DI: Uncle Amariah married someone
CT: Parthene Jones
DI: He married someone before he married Parthene. He
married Victoria...[inaudible]
CT: Did he?
DI: ...two children from Mrs. Mary Wetherington, one named
John
CT: She was a Wiley
DI: No, [inaudible] ...married John Henry Norman and the
other was a boy named John and lived over in Bridgeton and he married ... [inaudible]
CT: You've told me something I never knew that Uncle Amariah
was married twice.
DI: I didn't either until right here lately. Mrs. Mary
Wetherington...[inaudible]
CT: Well I'm glad you knew that Diccie.
DI: I can find out for certain from Mrs. Mary.
CT: Alright. Well
anyway, the last woman he married was a Jones. What was her first name?
DI: Parthene.
CT: Parthene. Uncle Amariah married Parthene Jones. Well now
do you know his sons?
DI: Josh, Duff...
CT: I know there are five or six of them.
CW: Is he the one that had Duff Toler? Was he a preacher?
CT: That was it. Well I declare we'll have to leave off some
of them unless you want to put down what me and her can recollect?
CW: Well we do.
DI: I've got all them, or a lot of them anyway.
CT: You have? Some? Well now Uncle Louis' sons were Kelly,
Thomas, Seth, Harvey and Jimmy.
DI: And a girl Lizzie.
CT: Lizzie, that was his daughter.
CW: Was she Elizabeth or Lizzie?
DI: They called her Lizzie, but I don't know.
CT: Well we've got so
many to name we'll have to get on with it now. Amariah, his sons, I never knew
but one. Did you?
DI: Duff.
CT: Who? Uncle Amariah, my ...we were then on my line. Now
we've got to start with Granddaddy Jimmy's brother Amariah. Ain't we? Amariah
never had but let's see now...he had one son...two sons: Emmett and Daniel.
DI: Daniel, was he the one who married Aunt Mary Liz?
CT: No, he married Sina. He married Aunt Sina.
CW: Now wait a minute, I'm lost. Are we on James' sons?
DI: Amariah's sons.
CW: Amariah's sons?
CT: Amariah, son of Daniel. Put that down and then you can
keep it more straight. Amariah, son of Daniel.
CW: Oh, I've got you.
Now I've got you.
CT: Well he had two sons that I know about. That was Emmett
and Daniel. Now we'll go to Charles, son of Daniel. Charles ...have you ever
heard of him?
DI: Yeah.
CT: He lives...That was his old home, the Caton place up
there. The Louis Caton place. That was his old home. That was where he settled.
CW: This is the Charles Toler that was on that piece of
paper that I gave you all and Diccie's got a copy of it. An old woman from
Blount's Creek gave it...
DI: Her name is Anna Rowe.
CW: That Charles Toler was mentioned on that paper. [some
inaudible conversation] We've got Charles' because we've got it on that paper.
CT: Well put it right down there and if you want to recopy
it you can do it. Charles, son of Daniel ...I can't remember to save my life
but one son. He had three or four daughters. One married, you've heard of him,
right there where you stay...
CW: Silas
CT: Silas Fulcher. Her name...what is Beanie Cayton's name?
I called her Beanie.
DI: Who?
CT: Ervin Cayton's
DI: Verrena...
CT: Beanie
DI: Verrena Carolina, I believe. Verrena anyway.
CT: Well I used called her Beanie.
CW: We still do.
CT: Alright, well Silas Fulcher married Uncle Charles'
daughter Beanie. I called her. Old man Alpha used to live down here in the Forest.
CW: Alpha Fulcher.
CT: Alpha Fulcher. And another brother of his lived in Norfolk. His name was
Rudolph.
CW: Now that's getting in my family.
CT: It is? Well alright. That was Uncle Charles Toler's
daughter Beanie. And he had one son. Well he had another daughter named
Melissa. Melissa Caton. She married Louis Caton and that's how come the Caton's
there. Melissa Caton was one of Uncle Charles' daughters. And another one was
old man Ad Whitford's daughter. They called her Amelia. Old man Ad Whitford. You
knew him, too, didn't you? And his other daughter was... her name was Barbara,
and she married John Powers. Barbara had a brother named Daniel, and that's the
only boy that I can remember Uncle Charles Toler had. Now I might get to
thinking seriously and think of another one but I can't...anyway John Powers
and Barbara immigrated to Texas way back yonder...you've heard of that hadn't
you.
CW: That's on that piece of paper.
DI: I know they've got some...
CT: They immigrated to Texas
and Daniel went with them, and there is another family of Tolers in Texas.
CW: Isn't this interesting how all this ties with some of the things we've gotten. And I've...I wish I had thought. We should have brought him a copy of that. I'm going to make...I bet I've got another copy of that at the house. But I want to give you a copy of that. So sometime when I come into the post office I'm going to bring one.
DI: Charles' children?
CT: Yeah...Look Diccie, Cousin Dave had a boy, I think he
had three sons, I think, but I don't know his last son because he moved away
from down yonder to White Oak River. Well he had a boy named Holloman and while
Holloman was on his journey as a young fellow he got into the Navy or Merchant
Marines or something or other and anyway he landed down there in Texas. And he already
knew about his grandmother's sister being in Texas so he decided to look them up and he
did. And after he got out of the Navy if that's what he was in, something like
that, he went and stayed with them for years and years and years. Cousin Dave's
son, Holloman.
DI: Holloman?
CT: Um-hmm. Alright then that's the end of that family.
Now...let's see, we've had James, Amariah and Charles, ain't we?
DI: Now it's Stephen.
CT: Now we go to Stephen, son of Daniel.
DI: Uncle Jim, Uncle Abe, and them.
CT: Right, you know everyone of them? Well the first one's
name was Dennis, Dennis, Abe, Abraham, well he was the very last one. Then
comes Zach, Redding,
and Jim. He had five or six boys.
DI: And two or three girls...
CT: Well I don't remember.
DI: Gus and Ellen.
CW: That was the girls' names?
DI: {inaudible}
CT: There was one that went married a Lewis and lived way
down yonder South River way, Adams Creek. What
was her name? Well one of them, didn't one of them marry John Purifoy?
CW: What?! That's mine!
CT: John Purifoy. Did you know old man John Purifoy?
CW: Not yet, I don't.
CT: Well he's dead. Long ago, long ago.
CW: Now who was it married John Purifoy?
CT: Well now what was her name?
VJ: Jane.
CW: Jane.
CT: Jane! That's right. That boy's got it. Right there. Jane
was her name. I've got to where now I can't remember things as good as I used
too, but that was her name.
CW: I tell you one thing. My memory is not like yours at my
age right now.
DI: Was there one named Betty?
CT: Betty? That's the one that married Lewis and moved to
Adams Creek...South River way down there.
DI: Then there's Emmeline? She's the one married John
Walker. Which one married John Purifoy?
VJ: Jane.
CT: And there was one that was never married. Her name was Augusta.
CW: She didn't get married. You know what somebody told me?
They said if you look far enough back you'll find you've got Toler blood in
you. And I do, I'm finding out that I do. I've got Toler blood.
DI: And Ellen didn't get married either.
CT: That's right, Gus and Ellen.
DI: [Inaudible]
CT: No, no. That was an adopted. Her name was Minnie. We'll
she was an adopted child.
DI: She was?
CT: Yes. Well, old Uncle Stephen, I call all of them uncle.
Old Uncle Stephen's...what was his wife's name?
VJ & DI: Susan.
CT: Susan. Well she was John Purifoy's sister? Wasn't she?
Look it up son and see.
DI: I don't know?
CW: He hadn't got the Purifoys. I hadn't got that far back
either. I'm a Purifoy. I'm going to get it all while I'm right here.
CT: Well won't she a Purifoy, Diccie?
DI: I don't know.
CW: Let's see. Who's wife did you think was a Purifoy?
CT: Old man Stephen, son of Daniel. I believe she was John
Purifoy's , Old Man John Purifoy's sister...old man Arrington's son. There were
several of them Purifoys and old man Arrington was the only one I ever heard of
anywhere down there. And I know exactly where he lived, but...Do you know
anything about where Willie Purifoy used to live?
CW: Yes. Now that's
me section of the woods.
CT: It is? Willie?
CW: I lived further on down the road.
CT: Well Willie's daddy was named...everybody called him
Rad. Everybody called Willie's daddy Rad. He was old man Arrington's son. Well
old man Arrington had Rad, John, Steve...Steve, and one called Ap. That was old
man Arrington's family. Well now we've got Stephen, now. Now we come to
William, the youngest one. Did you descend from William, too? O.K. Now William...now I'll have to think a long
time because I think that William married a descendant of the settlers in New Bern.
DI: Barrington...Penny
Barrington.
CT: No, she won't a Barrington,
was she? Was she a Barrington?
DI: I thought it was Penny Barrington.
CT: Well I've been told that he married an Ebeck, an Ipock
they call them now. Penny. Her name was Penny, I know. Well I've been told that
she was an Ebeck. Of course you know the German, Swiss and Palatines that
settled New Bern
they were called, that particular family, in the Swiss language, were called
Ebeck. Have you ever heard of that? Now
when the English got through with it, Anglo-Saxon got through with it, they
called it Ipock. And I've been told that old Aunt Susan was an Ipock. Are you
sure? Am I wrong?
DI: That would be Pa's daddy, wouldn't it? My granddaddy's
daddy? William Pitt Toler's daddy?
CT: William Pitt...Yeah.
DI: Well it was Penny Barrington, because it's on the
tombstone out there at High
Bridge.
CT: Penny Barrington. Alright let's forget about them.
DI: Do you know any Barringtons?
CT: Oh yes, I know some Barringtons used to live right
across the highway over there on the old brick road. Old man Jesse Barrington.
CW: I want to get that written down, too. I've got some
Barringtons in my family history.
CT: You have? Well, old man Jesse Barrington...I don't know
much about him than he used to live across the highway...old brick road over
yonder. Do you know where Randolph Cook used to live? Well that was the Barrington place.
DI: You don't know where she come from or nothing?
CT: No I don't. I don't even know his wife or anything? I
just know old man Jesse Barrington. Nona Lee remembers him.
CW: Do you remember the Kinsaul place? Now my Grandmother
was a Barrington. She was a Mary Barrington and she married a Jones. But her folks came from the Kinsaul place over here. And they were Kinsauls and they came from Pamlico County. Somehow one of those Kinsauls
married a Barrington.
And I bet that Barrington
was from right up there right where those people you were talking about, Jesse
Barrington.
CT: I just don't know. They could have been kin, I just
don't know.
CW: I bet you one of those Kinsaul girls married. When they
came over here.
CT: There's some of those Kinsaul girls alright because one
of the married a Fulcher out here called Bryan Fulcher.
CW: That's the ones. We're kin to the Fulchers. You know
that Fulcher that was a Holiness Preacher up there in Vanceboro.
CT: Dave?
CW: Well he was kin to my mother.
CT: Well Dave is old man Bryan's son. He had four or five
sons. I know every one of them. I can remember them. I used to pal around with
some of them.
CW: Did Mr. Bryan Fulcher marry a Barrington?
CT: No he married a Kinsaul.
CW: A Kinsaul. That's right a Kinsaul. I've got that, that's what I needed to know. Now we'll get back to the Tolers. William Toler.
CT: William Toler. Now let's see. William Toler...his sons
were Lawrence, Caravasso, Pitt, and Willis. That's all of them, isn't it? [some
conversation] Diccie, is that all of William's family?
DI: That's all the boys.
CT: Well I don't know the girls.
DI: There's one girl named Frances Ann, and she married Dave
R Dunn. And Aunt Laura...
CT: Laura Wetherington, old man Henry. I know her.
DI: And Mary, she didn't ever get married.
CT: Yes, she did. Mary married a man from Connecticut. No, not Connecticut,
a New England state. What was his name?
DI: I don't know, I didn't know that.
CT: Mary Jane? Mary Jane? Who was Mary Jane?
DI: You're talking about Uncle Lawrence's girl.
CT: Yes, I am. Yes, I am. Beg your pardon, Diccie.
DI: Mary, Pa's
sister was the first one buried out here at High Bridge.
CT: I am getting off the track fast, that was Uncle
Lawrence's daughter.
DI: Yes.
CT: That's right.
DI: This Mary was the first one buried out here at High Bridge.
CW: And she didn't get married?
DI: No, she didn't.
CT: Well now you help them with that for I don't know.
DI: And then Elizabeth, which is
Beanie's mama.
CT: John Gaskins. John Gaskins was raised right across this
branch, right over yonder on that hill across this branch. He moved in there
not but just a little ways from Uncle Charles Toler. They were the only two
families in there at that time...except...
DI: And somebody else...
CT: Huh?
DI: Didn't somebody
raise him?
CT: I don't know. I don't...to tell you the truth I don't even know, because this whole neighborhood is full of Gaskinses but really the Gaskins family is something I don't know too much about. Now. I know from Nona Lee, she, her family, her granddaddy married at first a Gaskins. I think that his name was Adam Gaskins, and I think he fathered the whole Gaskins family that's all around this whole place. They were just everywhere. In fact they owned most all of this land, but that's been a terrible long many years ago now. And there's no Gaskinses live right in here now, but there's plenty of them on the road...[inaudible]...but I don't know much about the Gaskins family. I know some of them, I've seen some of the old ones, but I don't know them. I think they were Adam Gaskins' offspring, Diccie, is what I think. Now, we've got Bill, William, and his sons,
CTJr: There's a William Toler lives in down by Bayboro.
CT: Well, he's some of Mathias' family.
CW: That's what I was thinking. There's a Toler, what's his
name? He's in Tideland Electric.
DI: Lee?
CW: Lee Toler, and I bet, he's a, he's a holiness minister
down in Alliance, and lives in Alliance.
CT: I know him.
CW: I bet you all those Tolers came from Mathias.
CT: I know him. I know Lee. [inaudible conversation] Yes,
they were some of Mathias' family. Mathias, brother to Daniel. Well, let's
see...
CW: We're going back to William's children.
CT: Well Diccie can
tell you more about William because she came from that generation...I mean
she's kin to them.
CW: Can we go back and see if we can get all their children.
Like Lawrence's children and who they are married to and their children.
CT: Well Lawrence, his oldest son was Allen, his
grand-great...he descended from Allen. Lawrence
was Allen's daddy.
CW: Who was your mother?
CT: My mother? She was Laura Bell Norman.
CW: Was she kin to Mr. Gilbert Norman and all them?
CT: Yes
[Tape ends. End side one.]
